How To Profit By Accepting IRA Investors In Your Syndicate With Kaaren Hall

Krisha Young:

Welcome, welcome. This is Syndication Attorneys’ free monthly podcast, where we talk about topics of interest to real estate syndicators and fund managers, with opportunities for live questions and answers before we sign off. This is attorney Kim Lisa Taylor, and I am Krisha Young, co-host and business development director at the firm. Before we get started, please note that this event is both recorded and streamed video and can be used for future promotion. It’ll be posted on our website or in a live broadcast available to the public. You can ask questions at the end of the broadcast by raising your hand or typing it in the Q&A. Information discussed during this free podcast is of a general educational nature and should not be construed as legal advice.

Today, we’ve got Kaaren Hall. Hello, Kaaren. How are you?

Kaaren Hall:

Good, how are you?

Krisha Young:

Good, good. Our topic is “How to Profit by Accepting IRA Investors in Your Syndicate.” So please join our host, attorney Kim Lisa Taylor, while she explores the intricacies of allowing self-directed IRA investors into your syndicate. Our special guest is our friend Kaaren Hall of uDirect IRA. Kaaren is a thought leader in the self-directed IRA space, both on the marketing and legislative fronts. We’ll also ask her to share some of her marketing secrets so you can use them to meet your own investors, as she’s one of the most effective marketers we know. Hello, welcome.

Kim Lisa Taylor:

Well, and I love that last statement, because Kaaren started a database before anybody knew what that was, right?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah.


And she told me that, back in the early days, she’d go to an event, and she’d collect all these business cards, and she’d go back into her room at night. She had a little scanner that she brought with her, and she would scan every business card, put it in her database. Kim, on the other hand, I used to collect business cards and put them in a rubber band and throw them in a drawer.

Kaaren Hall:

Less effective, yeah.


A little less effective. Later on, I resurrected all those and started sending those emails, “Hey, we met like three years ago, but if you still remember me, maybe we can connect again.” But, yeah, Kaaren learned how to do this right from the beginning, and she’s been showing us all. And she’s very, very prolific on social media as well, which is a skill that we’re trying to learn and get better at. But that is definitely a learned skill, I think.

Krisha Young:

I agree.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah. I had a job a long time ago, and at that time, it was a Rolodex, and so, my boss said to me, “See this? Do you see what this is?” It was his Rolodex. It was just chock-full of these little paper cards, if no one knows what that is. And it was just full. And he said, “This is why I have a career. It’s because of my contacts.” And that inspired me to like, “I want to succeed. I’ll connect with everybody I can.” And that’s what started that. It’s incredibly important to have a database.


Yeah. And we’ll talk about how you can connect with Kaaren here during the course of this call. But Kaaren, tell us about uDirect IRA and how you got started, and then we’ll also talk about how we met, which is also a long time ago, but we won’t say when.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, so we can still keep our 29-year-old status, right, or does it have to be 39 now? Maybe so. But yeah. So, I met Kim before I started uDirect IRA Services. I was working for another company, and then I left that company and started, during the recession, so, no pressure, and just bootstrapped the whole darn thing. It was a crazy time, as it was for a lot of people when the recession hit, because my skills are being a radio announcer, which, in Orange County, all the radio stations are in LA. Selling real estate, I did that. And then, mortgage loan servicing and loan origination were also things that I’d done. Well, those were not the big skills to have during the recession, since it was caused by the real estate crash.

So, I had to do something, so I took what I knew and just turned it into uDirect. And, from that point on, now we have $1 billion in managed assets. So, that’s the quick answer to that road. But every day’s a challenge. When you open a business, you realize that there are a lot of skills you need to acquire. There are a lot of things that have been outside my wheelhouse, a lot of things like, “Wow, this is way over my head,” but I had to still understand, master them. And so, that’s taken, I guess, 15 years, if you can believe that.


Yeah, it does, for the business. It’s a lot of dedication and hard work and after-hours things that happen. It just can be a big challenge.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah.


I don’t think we have the best connection, so I do apologize for that. I think… or, I don’t know whose end it’s on, but there is a little bit of stuttering going on.

Kaaren Hall:

I hear that, by the way.


Okay, so we talked about how you built your database, by being diligent, by collecting cards, by following up with everybody. How did you then follow up with people and maintain those relationships and build that?

Kaaren Hall:

I was really on a war path, I guess, just so obsessed about it, because it was so effective, and I needed to reach a goal. So, I had a card scan. That’s what that little machine is. It’s a scanner. And it scans the card into an Excel-based kind of database. And so, what I would do is, as soon as I met people, you’re right, I would scan their cards. I would then follow up with an email. And I think follow-up is crucial, and timely follow-up is crucial, because, like you said, three years later, it’s like, “I don’t remember you,” but the next day, they’re going to remember you, “Hey, it was great to see you at WOWCON,” whatever it is, or BiggerPockets, “And here’s my stuff.” So, then, “How can I help you? How can I help you succeed?”

And then, another thing that I did a lot more at the beginning is postcards. So, I would use that database. Everybody put their mailing address on business cards at that time. I don’t know if people still do that. But I would send postcards out to the people that I met as well. One thing I learned from a class in college was, advertising class, it’s about layers, and it’s about how many touches, how many impressions do you make on someone. At that time, it didn’t take as many impressions. Now, our minds are just bombarded with messages. You have to make many more impressions in order to really be remembered. But it was email. It was phone calls. It was postcards, and then live events and doing things like this, inviting people, and of course, social media. Social media is huge.

So, the more people see your brand, the more you become a household name. We all know this. We all grew up with TV. We know how it works. And so, just to follow that simple thing that we see in front of us every day is, you just get in front of people, with a message of, “Hey, here’s how what I do can help you.”


Yeah. And I love what you said about, you would ask them, “How can I help you?” And we get that. This is a world where we all need a leg up, and somebody might know somebody. Somebody might have a suggestion. They might have a contact that you need. You just have to ask, “How can I help you? What is it you need? What is it you’re looking for?” And then, if you can offer that help, they’re going to remember you. They’re going to be grateful. And they’re going to want to either come back to you and offer you some business or try to give you what you need. So, if you’re looking for business or you need a contact, they’re going to remember you.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. Yeah.

Krisha Young:

Yeah. Same here. It’s having a servant’s heart, right? You go out there wanting to serve. Then, it can also help us overcome that sense of feeling like we’re bothering people, because I hear that a lot with the women that I’ve supported over the years, is like, “Ooh, those touch points feel like you’re bothering somebody, like you’re being annoying.” And I’m like, “You know, these big companies that are advertising out there, they’re in our feed every three seconds. I don’t think that they feel like they’re being annoying.” It’s important for us to be relevant in somebody’s mind, but do it in a classy way that makes them feel like we’re being of service and not just like, “How can you help us?” But, “How can we help you?”

Kaaren Hall:

I mean, that’s key.


… and very much a mindset. It’s like, “I’m not asking you for something. I’m offering you something.” So, if you can flip that, even when you’re talking to investors, “I’m not asking you to give me money to further my business. I’m asking you if you want to participate in an opportunity that will help you achieve your goals. I’m offering you an opportunity.” That’s just a huge shift. We all have to figure out how we can always do that in all things that we do.

Krisha Young:

Yeah.

Kaaren Hall:

Isn’t that so true? And I guess we’re going to get into that a little bit as we go forward, because that’s key. That is so important. And it helps people build retirement.


And, just one other question on that, when you followed up with people, did you kind of have an internal rule of, “Hey, I need to follow up within 24 hours or 72 hours”? What was your inherent sense of that?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, the best thing is next day. The best thing that you can do is do it next day. Now, that’s not always possible, obviously, but within a week, within a week, because what I started doing 17 years ago is putting out an email every Monday at 8:00 a.m. Pacific. time So, for 17 years, no kidding, once a week, so, 17 times 52, I’ve put out an email Monday mornings at 8:00 a.m. And people have actually… I’ve been in a group, and someone comes to speak about marketing, and they’re like, “Oh yeah, you’re Monday at 8:00 a.m.,” and they know this. So it’s the consistency of the message, but it’s also getting them… You call it a drip campaign, but also, like we were talking about, it’s, “If you’re interested in this, here’s more,” like, “Here’s a blog article that’s going to explain this.” What I do — people have so many questions about, and there are so many misunderstandings — is to try to offer value once a week.


I love that. I love that. We could definitely adopt that. And I think we do some of it. I mean, we really try. We’ve gone through many iterations on what our newsletter was like, where we would offer a lot of information, but then we felt maybe that was overwhelming, and now, we’ve put it into bite-size pieces so that people can handle it a little better. You can read it in 30 seconds. I think that’s always important.

Okay, well, that’s all amazing stuff, and I want everybody out there who’s raising capital to understand that you can all do those exact same things. You can be like Kaaren. She is a role model in the marketing space, and I use her as my role model, and I’m always just filled with appreciation for how regimented she is about maintaining those relationships and initiating them and then following up and offering value. So, we could all learn to do that. We should all learn to do that better.

So, how do you go about, then, converting people to clients?

Kaaren Hall:

They convert themselves. But I think it’s asking for the order. And we found so many different ways to ask people… to become available. Like on our website, we’ve got a live chat. We send the email. But we recently did something really fun on our website. On our “Contact Us” page, we added a calendar. So now what we’re getting is a lot of people making appointments to talk to us. So, if you go to udirectira.com and you hit the “Contact Us” page, you’ll see that you can not only just fill out a form and send an email at the bottom of the page, but, closer to the top, it’s set an appointment, and then, someone from uDirect will talk to you. And we give free 20-minute consultations. And if you need a self-directed IRA to reach your goals, we’re going to answer your questions. And then, we hope that we’re showing, and we will show you, that we’d be a great company to go with, because we have answers to your questions, and we’re competent and efficient. So, it’s not hard, but it’s inviting people to contact you, just inviting people in.


And, so, I’m going to go check that out and see how you’re doing it. We’ve been asking people to schedule appointments at our “Schedule a Free Call,” “Schedule a Free Call” on every page on our website for a long time. But I did notice when we started doing that, that it was so much better. Our call volumes went way, way up. And people responded to us when they could pick something that was at their time. And I remember the first time somebody ever sent me an email and said, “Oh…” They were super apologetic, “Oh, I hate to do this. I’m really sorry, but could you find a time on my calendar that works for you?” And then I’m like, I want that, so, like that, because we were going back and forth trying to schedule appointments with people and it was just taking up way too much time, and sometimes, just didn’t get done and it got too frustrating for everyone. So, yeah, now, that’s the only way we schedule appointments.

Krisha Young:

I used to do that in my personal life. If there’s a coffee chat or a social chat or something like that, someone’s, “Hey, Krisha, what’s up?” And it’s like, “Listen, it’ll take us forever to find a time and day. Here’s my link.” It kind of feels a little formal, but then at least we’re going to get the time, so let’s just do that. We’re all busy. And then, that way it saves us all that time going back and forth.

Kaaren Hall:

Super efficient, right?

Krisha Young:

Yeah.


You could try that with your kids.

Krisha Young:

Yeah, right? Mom’s office hours are only between 6:00, 7:00 a.m. That’s it. They’re sleeping.


You have to get up early if you want to talk to me.

Krisha Young:

Yeah.


All right, so, let’s get onto some true business stuff and talk about IRAs. So, Kaaren, thank you so much for sharing those tips with us, because that stuff is invaluable for people who are trying, because we’re constantly teaching our clients that your goal when you’re raising capital is to create a database of ready, willing, and able investors, and that means that you’ve got their contact information, you’ve followed up with them, you’ve scheduled calls with them, you’ve had suitability conversations with them, you’ve recorded, at least taken note, of what was said during that call. And now, from that point forward, you can offer them any deal you want, but until you’ve taken those steps, you can’t. So, when you meet somebody at an event, your goal is to gather their contact information. Now you’ve got to do something with it, so you should set out with a plan. And just one last thing, as a follow-up on that, do you have written procedures on how you do this and how other people might do this within your company? Do you have standard operating procedures for everything?

Kaaren Hall:

For what precisely?


For everything? Have you set up things like that?

Kaaren Hall:

I suppose we have more KPIs, like hit the goal. And the thing about… I’m, obviously, a CEO, and I have managers, and so I think what’s really important with managers is to let them manage. That’s one thing. Not to tell them what to do, but to let them… that’s why I hired them, because they know what to do, and let them do it, but they have to reach certain key performance indicators, and just hold them accountable. No one’s ever been off the rails, but if somebody went off the rails doing something crazy, I’d obviously call them on it. But the people that I’ve hired at uDirect, they know what to do, so, I trust them.


Hiring good people is key. I know for us, it can be a challenge, so we write down all the different things that we do so as we bring in new staff, then it’s an easier onboarding process for them, because then they can read what the process is, and then, now, their questions are maybe not so much minutiae, but kind of bigger picture, which I think helps them with their jobs as well.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, so, what we do when I bring someone on, if they haven’t already gone through it, is I put them through training. First, they go through a basic kind of online training about what is an IRA. If you want to say, “We sold a product. It’s an IRA,” so what is an IRA, and whether it’s self-directed or not. What kinds of IRAs, what are the rules? So they go through that training.

And then, I’ll send them to a class, a five-day class called the Self-Directed IRA Institute and let them learn about the self-directed IRA world, which is taking it up a level and learning extra things, not just about the IRA itself, but like fraud awareness, which is my favorite topic, like trying to be aware and avoid fraud. And we’ll probably talk about that today. But just the various nuances of the self-directed account.

And so, it’s rare that we get a question where we really just don’t know the answer. And I got one today, by the way, that I’m working on, a question I’ve not heard. I’ll just share it with you, “Does an IRA need an EIN? Because a lot of syndicators are asking for EIN.” So, I’m trying to figure, “What happened? Why are syndicators asking for EINs right now?” And so, there could be a variety of reasons, and I could go off on a tangent. But new things come up, yes, then I advise the whole staff, “Hey, here’s this new thing. Here’s what it is, why you need it. Some people say you do. Some people say you don’t.” But now I’m in the process of researching this, and I’ll come out with a blog article within the week, I’m traveling this week, but within the week to tell everybody, “What do you need, and what’s the bottom line?”


Right. Right. Right. And then, now, there’s the new Corporate Transparency Act, and how does that affect them.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, so interesting that you’d ask. The Corporate Transparency Act, yes, the special purpose LLC, the IRA-owned LLC needs to file… The IRA-owned LLCs, you have to file the CTA for that. But if you have a solo 401(k) and the solo 401(k) has — we call it an IRA-owned LLC, the special purpose LLC, the LLC, the… I’m sorry, the solo k is not required to file under the Corporate Transparency Act. I have an article about that on my site.


Well, I need to read that. I didn’t even think about that on my own, but you’re right. Okay. That’s good. Okay. So, what is the difference between a retirement account and a self-directed IRA?

Kaaren Hall:

Again, it’s such a basic, but such a great question, and it’s probably the number one question where people get caught up. They’ll say, “Well, I have an IRA, Charles Schwab.” Well, that’s not a truly self-directed IRA. Now, companies like Charles Schwab or whatever, E*TRADE, whatever, they’re very big companies with very big marketing departments, and so they start to call their accounts self-directed.

But the truth of it is, what a truly self-directed IRA is, is an IRA that can invest in alternative assets. The big brokerage houses, they are not allowed to basically direct you into alternative assets. They can only direct you into stock-market-based assets, market-correlated assets. So, an IRA is an IRA. It’s a retirement bucket that holds assets, no matter what it is. What makes an IRA self-directed is being able to invest in these alternative assets. And it’s a subtle difference, but IRA rules are the same regardless what asset you put in there, but a self-directed IRA lets you hold alternatives, like syndications, which, by the way, by the way, syndications are the number one asset class for our industry. That’s the number one asset class that people will put their self-directed IRA into.

Krisha Young:

Wow.


Wow, that’s great. What other things can people invest in?

Kaaren Hall:

I’m kind of on a personal bend with precious metals. I kind of love them. So, just like real estate, it’s a tangible asset, you can hold it. But with a self-directed IRA, we custody those, that actual metal, at a depository. And so, precious metals is one thing, but the number two asset after syndications is notes, secured and unsecured debt. And as you can tell us and teach us about, Kim, notes can sometimes be a security, right?


Yes. Yeah, and you will get into a self-directed… or a local real estate investment association meeting, and they will argue up and down that it’s not. Yeah, it’s the first thing in the definition of what is the security in the 1933 Securities Act and all state securities acts. So, the very first thing you’ll see there is a note. And there are certain notes that could be exempted. There could be some state laws that exempt them, but often not.

We actually had someone who had… They had issued three promissory notes in Colorado and they got a letter from the Securities Regulatory Commission in Colorado saying, “What exemption did you use to offer these notes to these investors in Colorado?” And luckily, they maybe made a couple of technical mistakes, but they had done it sufficiently enough that the state was satisfied. But if you hadn’t done anything and you didn’t even know that what you’re selling was securities, then that could’ve been a lot of trouble for them. So, we don’t want anybody to get in that situation.

Kaaren Hall:

But they’re great vehicles. If you invest in a secured note and the borrower pays you back, great, you made a profit. If they paid us, great, fabulous. If they don’t and they default, then you have a secured asset. And the assumption is, you can go over, and you can take that asset, the security, you can own that, like maybe a house. Maybe they don’t pay you on a mortgage that your IRA has made, so now you’ve got the house, and so you have a different asset. So, that’s possible.


Excellent. All right. So, how does it work, then? If someone wants to use their self-directed IRA funds to invest in a syndicate, what’s the process they go through?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah. And, by the way, I think maybe it’s a good time just to say that a syndication is known as so many different things. You might call it a private placement. You might call it a Reg A, B, C, or D offering. It has a lot of different names. But, I mean, how would you summarize, Kim? What is a syndication? How would you define it?


Black’s Law Dictionary says it’s just a group formed for a common purpose and to achieve a common goal, and that’s it.

Kaaren Hall:

Oh.


So, in the real estate world, it’s usually a group of people that are going to be actively involved in finding, acquiring, getting financing for, and managing an asset on behalf of the investors, overseeing property managers, so that’s the asset management group. And then they’ll usually put together a company that sells interest to investors that’s going to hold title to that property, and the investors are going to own a portion of that company, and then the management team, the asset management team is going to also own a portion of that company that they get in exchange for sweat equity.

So, really, that’s as simple as it is. There’s really just three parts. You’ve got a management team, so usually a separate LLC for that. And then we’ve got what we call Class A members, or all the cash-paying investors, including management team, if they invest in their own deals. And then we’ve got a portion carved out for management. And, very typically, in a syndicate, we’ve seen a lot of 70/30 splits over the past couple of years. When I first started in this industry, the standard was around 60/40. So, it’s changed.

Kaaren Hall:

Well, the way you get a syndication, now that we know what it is, into an IRA is, first, you open an account. Takes a minute. We have a form on our website. You get the account funded, and that means you move over an IRA, you roll over a previous employer plan, or you contribute. So you’ve got an account open with money in it. You give us the documentation. And when we are investing in a PPM syndication, whatever you want to call it, you’ve got the operating agreement, which we don’t always need, but we need the subscription agreement. That is the contract. And so, we want to see the… We call it the sub docs. We want to see the subscription agreement. And we want to take a look at it. And then we’ll review it. And we’re not going to say if it’s a good or bad deal. That’s not what we do. We don’t vet deals or tell you if they’re good or bad. We simply just make sure that it’s titled in the name of the IRA.

We do have a list, or we can do a LexisNexis search. Sometimes we do this to see if the syndicator is a bad actor, or if they’re a known bad actor from… we have previous account holders, maybe, who have had a fuss with them and we see that, then we can maybe just say, “Hey, this syndication is not administratively feasible.” But assuming that it passes everything, and 99.9% of them do, we’ll fund that deal. So, you fill out a direction form. You say, “Hey…” That’s why we call it uDirect, because you direct your money. You tell us, “Hey, take my money in my IRA and put it in the syndication. Give it to these people,” by check or wire, and we do that. So, you open fund invest, and then, all the proceeds from that deal come back to the IRA that owns the asset. So, the steps are very, very simple.


So, you called that a direction form? What’s the name of that?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah. Well, different companies call it different things, like a by direction, or you could call it a DOI, direction of investment. But it’s the account holder giving us a signed… It’s like a check, “Hey, bank, give my money to this person.” It’s something like that. It’s like, “Here’s the amount. Here’s the person you’re paying it to. Here’s how to pay them, signed me.” And then you also sign a waiver and acknowledgement that you know that we don’t tell you what to invest in and you’re solely responsible for the assets you do invest in. And that’s what a direction form does.


Okay, great. And so, I’m just taking some notes here too, because we usually do an article afterwards, about our discussion today. So, what are the benefits? Why would somebody want to invest through an IRA versus just investing cash?

Kaaren Hall:

There are lots of reasons. So, basically, we have to save for retirement, because, guess what, there may not be Social Security when we get there. We just don’t know. And we have to be responsible for ourselves, is my opinion. So, in order to do that, we have to save. So we have retirement dollars. If you’ve worked at a job, you probably have a 401(k) that you can move over. Then you have to make a decision, “Do I want to take that money that I’ve saved in a retirement account, or contributed to a retirement account, do I want to put that in the stock market where I have no control, or do I want to put it into a self-directed account where I control the asset?” And one of those assets could be a syndication.

And the other thing too is that syndications are… One of the great things about self-directed IRAs, it lets the average Joe invest in what only the uber-wealthy used to be able to invest in. And so, you can have part of a deal. You can have part of a big company. You can have a fractional ownership in something that can grow. And what I love about self-directed IRAs in this case is that when you’re using a broker-dealer, whatever, they’re taking all kinds of fees out of your stock-market-based assets. And if you want to understand that, I’ll just give you a quick reference. You can Google this. You know John Oliver, the comedian, he has this great, amazing program, but Google John Oliver and then teacup pigs, because he’s a comedian. And that is a whole exposé on how big brokerage firms take fees out of your retirement accounts. And so, you think you’re saving, but they’re really stripping your accounts of a great deal of your earnings in fees. So, I recommend that you research this yourself.

With a self-directed IRA, we have an annual fee. We have a couple of fees if you want something wired. I mean, it’s kind of passing that fee along to the account holder, some basic fees, but they’re all disclosed to you up front. We don’t participate in the… For example, if your asset grows in value, we don’t make more money, if your IRA buys a syndication and then there’s a liquidation and now it’s worth more, so, just to say that you’re making money, and we’re not.

So, we have to save for retirement, and it’s just crucial that we do this, because saving for retirement gives us tax benefits. An IRA could be tax-free in a Roth, or tax-deferred. And so, let me just talk, because… A little thing about the Roth, a Roth is so awesome. It was in, I think, 19… god, it was in 1980-something when the Roth came out. It’s the newest IRA. And you put the money in after tax dollars. You’ve already been taxed on those dollars. But they grow tax-free, and they come out tax-free, as long as you’re 59-and-a-half and you have had a Roth at least five years. Those are the rules.

But wow, there is something so new on the horizon for this. SECURE Act 2.0 says – and has yet to be implemented – that you can make Roth contributions to a SEP or a SIMPLE IRA. Both of those kinds of IRAs are employer IRAs. So, if you’re an employer or self-employed, you can have a SEP, which is a simplified employee pension, a SIMPLE IRA, which is a savings incentive match plan for employers. It’s called SIMPLE. It’s not. So, the SEP is just light years better than the SIMPLE, but you decide what you want. You can now make Roth contributions to those two types of accounts.

Now, we’re waiting on the Department of Treasury to give us guidance on that. We have very little guidance. But today, in 2024, you can contribute up to a max of $69,000 a year to a SEP IRA, and you can do it as a Roth contribution.


Wow. Wow.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, boom. And the reason you don’t hear about this is because we were lacking guidance from the Department of Treasury. But that was effective December 31st, 2022. So, it’s the bomb. And you know I sit on the board of directors for the Retirement Industry Trust Association, so we have lobbyists. And so, when our lobbyist gets on our Zoom call, our board meeting, he’ll always say, “No, Kaaren, we don’t have guidance yet.” I don’t even have to ask, because we’re just dying for it so that we can tell everybody how to do this.


Well, you don’t think the IRS is dragging their feet on this, do you?

Kaaren Hall:

Why would they do that? I don’t know. I have no clarity on that one.

But isn’t that amazing? So, Roth… The benefit to an IRA is the tax protection, which is to say tax-free and tax-deferred. And that way, you can compound faster.


Right. And I love that you pay the taxes now, because you know what they are right now, and you don’t get taxed later. With the other scenario, where you take the tax deferral, you’re banking on the fact that the taxes are going to be less because you are going to be in a lower tax bracket at some point in the future, which isn’t really a goal we should be seeking, right? We don’t want to necessarily be in a lower tax bracket. We want to be in the best tax bracket we can, because that means we’re still making money.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, yeah. And that’s how it is with the Roth. Traditionals are different. And this is why people have so many questions about self-directed IRAs, because, “Well, what if the moon is full on a Thursday? What do I do then?” Right?


Yes. All right. Well, let’s talk about some prohibited transactions, because I know you mentioned something about you could invest in a syndicate where you have control, but you don’t really have the managerial control, but you’re in a smaller group, and you may have some say in how things are handled or some voting rights and things like that in a syndicate that you certainly wouldn’t have if you invest in a public company. So, tell us what things can’t we do with a self-directed IRA?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, the IRS is really genius in their simplicity. There are two things you can’t do. You can’t invest in collectibles, and you can’t invest in insurance contracts. That’s it. Now, another thing you can’t invest in, but not because the IRS says so, is S Corp stock, so to speak, because an S Corp won’t allow a nonhuman to be an equity owner. So, those are the three things you can’t invest in with an IRA.


S Corp stock, what was the third?

Kaaren Hall:

So, it’s life insurance contracts, collectibles, like fine wine collections or coin collections, like numismatics. You can invest in precious metals, but not a collectible coin. You can’t invest in artwork with an IRA.


Can or you can’t, for artwork?

Kaaren Hall:

You cannot. No, no collectible. No collectible.

So, collectibles, insurance contracts, and S Corp stock … that leaves a lot of things available …


That leaves a lot of things available. All right. So, when you’re looking over somebody’s buy-direction letter, and you’re looking over their subscription documents, what kind of red flags would you look at that might say, “Wait a minute, I’m not sure this is legit.” What are those things?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, with self-directed IRAs, there are things called prohibited transactions. And that’s really, you got to start with the rules, and that’s found in the Internal Revenue Code. It’s IRC 4975. Okay, I know you’re a rule book kind of person, but anyone who is a rule book person, you can look for them there.

But one of the things that I get asked a lot when I talk to syndication investors is, “Hey, I’m a manager of a fund. Can my IRA invest in my fund?” Like, “No, that’s a prohibited transaction. No, no, no.” If you’re offering… It’s called offering services to the plan. Plus, if you are a manager of that plan, the assumption is you’re going to receive, at some point, proceeds. And another prohibited transaction is receiving personal benefit from your IRA-owned assets. So, two strikes against you as a prohibited transaction.

So what? It’s prohibited, right? Big deal, doesn’t sound that bad. Well, what happens is, if your IRA invests and there is a prohibited transaction, the tax-protected bubble of that IRA bursts, it’s not tax-protected anymore. Now you get to pay taxes back to the day that you started the investment, plus probably penalties. And it’s going to be a little bit of a fuss. You’ll have to pay income tax and penalties.


And it’s not just for that asset. It’s for all of your earnings.

Kaaren Hall:

Your entire IRA, the bubble bursts, yeah.

Krisha Young:

Wow.


Oh yeah.

Kaaren Hall:

Now, I have to say, though, a true prohibited transaction, you really have to be called out by the IRS. They have to tell you it’s prohibited. I haven’t seen very many of those, in 17 years, maybe half a dozen, where it’s that bad. So I don’t want to scare people, but if we see it, we’re going to resign as the custodian of that asset, if we see that. Or, that’s another thing that could stop a syndication from us funding one. When we can see clearly that you’re the manager and you’re also trying to invest your IRA in a deal, we’re going to say, “Sorry, prohibited transaction. This is not administratively feasible.”


Right, right, right. And what about…? I’ve heard… You can buy a house in your IRA, right? But you have to use a non-recourse loan, which is challenging to find somebody that can do that, and you usually have to put a much bigger down payment down in order to do it, because I’ve explored that a little bit. But also…

Kaaren Hall:

All true.


… my understanding is, you can’t do any work on that house. I can’t go in and paint it. I can’t go in and put up a fence or mow the grass, right?

Kaaren Hall:

That’s true. There are a few things you can do. What you can do is you can screen tenants. You can hire third-party contractors to do the work, so you’re kind of like a GC on this. And you can also, whatever… Yeah. What can you do? You can collect the rents, collect the rent checks, and send them into your IRA. So, you can sort of act as a property manager, but you definitely cannot take a fee for being property manager. So, that’s what you can do.

But you’re right. You don’t swing the hammers. No contribution of sweat equity. That is considered a prohibited transaction. So that would cause your IRA to be… I mean, it could cause it. It’s unlikely. Basically, you just need to stop doing that.


All right. So, let’s just take a moment here and tell you guys about some things that we can offer you. Krisha, do you want to do that?

Krisha Young:

Yeah, absolutely. Such a fascinating conversation. And we do have some questions here, but we usually do Q&A at the very end. So, for anybody listening, we’ll get to you in a few. And in case you guys weren’t aware, we have two books on raising capital legally, one for beginners, and one for more experienced capital raisers, which is this tome that I enjoy going through. It’s like an encyclopedia. Both are written by Kim Lisa Taylor here. If you would like us to mail you one for free, please text the word syndicate, S-Y-N-D-I-C-A-T-E, to our phone number (844) 796-3428. Again, that’s text the word SYNDICATE to (844) 796-3428. And we’ll have a chance at the end as well to tell people where to go for you, Kaaren, as well.


Yeah. So, we’ve just got a couple more questions, and I want to get through them quick, because I do see we’ve got a huge number of questions in our queue here, so we want to make sure that we get to everybody. So, let’s talk about, are there limitations on the percentage of a raise that can be contributed by IRA investors to a syndicate? And my understanding of that is that there’s a real estate exemption, so if the company, the syndicate, is going to own or control real estate, that more than 50% of the assets owned by the syndicate are real estate assets, that there’s no limitation. They could have 100% of the investors could be IRA investors. Is that your understanding, too?

Kaaren Hall:

Right. But whenever this comes up, I always ask you, because I always say, “Talk to an attorney.” But yeah, no, there are rules. And I just want to say, somebody came to us a couple of weeks ago, and they were asking us a question about debt funds and is a debt fund… Does that meet the 25% rule? So I wrote a little article about that, so I’m just going to throw that up in the chat, that people can click on and just read later. But right, the 25% rule for raising capital is, you really need to observe that rule. Again, you don’t want to fall short of the SEC’s guidance in their guidelines.


What was your conclusion in the article? So, the alternative is, if it’s not a real estate fund, it’s not entitled to an exemption. I think it’s a REOC, right, real estate operating company? If it’s not entitled to that exemption, then you’re limited to 25% of the money can come from self-directed IRAs before you would have to start complying with ERISA laws, which would be a whole new level of reporting and fiduciary obligations and some other requirements that you’d have to comply with.

Kaaren Hall:

Exactly right. Yeah.


And what was the conclusion from your article about the debt funds?

Kaaren Hall:

Well, is it debt or equity? That was the question. If it’s debt, then it’s not the same as being an equity owner, is it? So, that’s what we say, yeah.


Doesn’t qualify for that exemption if it’s debt. Only qualifies if you actually are in control of the real estate, and also doesn’t apply if you’re investing in other people’s real estate with your LLC. So, you’re going to invest in an LLC that’s going to buy something else in somebody else’s syndicate, then that’s kind of the fund of funds model. That also would be subject to that 25% limitation, because they don’t directly own and control that real estate.

Kaaren Hall:

Right.


Interesting.

Kaaren Hall:

But I have to say, what I love about people investing in syndications, or any asset, but I mean, you were talking earlier about having the guts to go up and talk to somebody and say, “Invest in my deal.” You’re right. You don’t talk about, “Do this for me,” at all, because you’re really, really helping someone, assuming that you’re, obviously, a good person, you’re ethical, and you’re really offering someone a way to grow their retirement.

Well, guess what? Do you know how many Americans are really ready for retirement? So few. And you can feel extremely good to say, “I’m really going to help you to be ready when you’re older and you can’t work so there’s some money sitting there for you. That’s what my deal’s about.”

Now, there are bad actors in this space. I’m not going to lie. We know that. We’ve met them. Some are in jail. But the due diligence is… That’s a whole different podcast, I think, about doing due diligence. But you can really… assuming that everything’s on the up-and-up, you know in your heart that you’re doing someone a giant favor and helping them to share in the profit of your deal, and then they’ll have money when they need it most, when they can’t work.


Yeah, it is. You’re offering… The thing you have to think about before you speak to somebody who’s a potential investor is, you’re offering them an opportunity that they need, and they just don’t know. And they might be delighted to know you, because they didn’t know this was available to them, and they’re only been investing in stock market or other things, because all they know, and all of a sudden, you could be opening up a whole new world to them that, “Oh my gosh, I would love to do that. I just didn’t even know how.” And so, your job, if you’re looking for investors, is to teach them how it works. So, that’s where we come in is try to help guide you so that you can do that, you can understand it, and give you the tools you need so you can go out and explain it to your prospective investors.

All right, so, just a couple quick questions, and we definitely want to get into the calls. How can syndicators meet IRA investors?

Kaaren Hall:

Boy, I get asked that question a lot. Before COVID, I did just a tremendous amount of these meet-and-greets, where we’d have wine and cheese parties, people with money, people with deals, “Let’s get together and have some wine and cheese. Oops, you happen to meet. Isn’t that great?”

So, we do a lot of those locally. Another way, I mean, uDirect is on social media. You can find us and connect with other people that are also connected with us. That’s another way. It’s also going to… Really, you need to go to the events, like you and I… Kim and I mostly see each other at big events with investors, and it’s just going and talking to people, “Hey, what are you investing in?” and talking to them and just saying, “Well, hey, this is…” And they’ll say, “Well, what are you doing?” And you can say, “I’ve got this opportunity.” And I guess there are rules about presenting an offer. I understand that. But you really have to get out there.


You can always tell people what you do. You just can’t make offers to them for specific investments until you get to know them. If you’re going to be including non-accredited investors in your deals, you’ve got to establish a pre-existing substantive relationship. That requires a conversation and talking to them about their investment goals and suitability and their financial qualifications. If you haven’t had that conversation yet, then all you’re doing is just generally talking about, “Hey, we have this company that buys this, and we put groups of investors together to do it with us.” And I always like to say, “Groups of investors like you,” so that they realize that, “Hey, maybe I could do this.”

These are the kinds of things we talk about on our Masterminds. And so, we do have a low-entry-cost pre-syndication agreement that we offer to people who aren’t ready to syndicate yet, but want to start creating that database of prospective investors. We help them understand what they can say, what they shouldn’t say at different points in the relationship, how to present what they do, how to explain it, and how to have those people ready so that when they do get a deal, they can start offering them those opportunities.

So, if you want to know more about that, please do reach out to Krisha. She can tell you all about that program. It’s krisha@syndicationattorneys.com, K-R-I-S-H-A @syndicationattorneys.com, or just go to our website and schedule an appointment. You’ll end up talking to her anyway, and she can get you all hooked up. But, Kaaren, how can people reach you?

Kaaren Hall:

They can reach me at our website. It’s the letter U, udirectira.com, udirectira.com. And that’s where you can schedule a 20-minute consultation. And another thing, if I can just do a little plug for a target-rich environment where you can meet investors, I’m doing something with the Norris Group coming up, and also Keystone CPA. Yeah, I’m so excited. Bruce Norris will be talking, and it’s going be… This is for Southern California people especially. Anyone can come to Riverside and go to this thing, but it’s June 8th at the Riverside Convention Center, and we’ll have hundreds of people there. So, that’ll be a target-rich environment to talk to other investors.


Well, that’s amazing. Yeah, those are all great people to be in company with. And the Norris Group has provided timely and, I guess, very in-depth information to real estate investors for a very long time. And also, the Keystone CPA, they’re really reputable CPAs in this firm also in this space. I’ve known them for a long time. But, okay, great. Let’s go to some questions. Krisha, what do we have?

Krisha Young:

Yeah. So, this is from D.J. Aurora. Sorry, need my readers. “Is there a regulation on how much fee a syndicator can charge?”


Yeah, that’s a pretty loaded question, D.J. I’m going to encourage you to get this book and talk about the different ways that you can earn money as a syndicator, that you can legally earn money. And it’s definitely in this book. There’s also an article on our website, if you want to go there right now. It’s called “12 Ways You Can Earn Money as a Syndicator.” So, I would encourage you to go there. I would encourage any of you who want to, to go there. If you want my book right now, you can get it on Kindle. If you want to order a copy, text the word SYNDICATE to our phone number, which is (844) SYNDIC8, S-Y-N-D-I-C and the number eight, which, (844) 796-3428. You can do that. Or you can order it online at our website at the “Free Book” tab. But if you want it right away, go to Amazon, get it on Kindle. Look up Kim Lisa Taylor. You’ll find both my books. “How to Legally Raise Private Money” is the intro book. So, all right, go ahead, Krisha, some other questions?

Krisha Young:

Yeah, the next one is from Dana, but I see that Kaaren answered this one, so the fee structure for direct. So, you’ve just put that in the chat there. I’m assuming that everybody can see that webinar chat. I think so. And the Riverside event is in there. That’s great. Thank you. All right, so, another question here from D.J.: “My understanding is that one cannot take advantage of depreciation K-1 loss in IRA investing when doing a self-directed IRA, but can one accrue the depreciation for later when you take distributions from the IRA?”


Good question.

Kaaren Hall:

Tax question, but let’s talk about this. So, if your IRA… This is going to get kind of technical, but if your IRA takes on debt, okay, then your IRA has a special tax. It’s not income tax, but it’s called UDFI, unrelated debt-financed income tax. So then, if your IRA is profiting due to debt, because you took on a loan, non-recourse loan, you’re going to owe this tax. And so, your tax person is going to create a 990-T. When they do, they can take depreciation as a deduction. They’re going to take all the deductions when your tax person fills out that form. So your IRA can take depreciation in a case like that. But no, you don’t save that depreciation for later. The IRA is its own world. It doesn’t transfer to your personal life, which is to say, your personal money is in one universe, and your IRA money is in a different universe.


So, they can use it to offset the UDFI?

Kaaren Hall:

Correct. UDFI, yes.


I didn’t know that. This is why I interview people. It’s not about you guys. It’s about me. So, go ahead, Krisha. Any other questions?

Krisha Young:

Yeah, Doug Hoffman, when we were talking about that 70/30 split, the question is, which is GP, and which is LP?


The LPs are usually getting the bulk of that, the 70%. So, there’s a whole formula. In fact, the second book has a whole chapter about this on how to calculate splits amongst investors, which was… It was a mystery to me when I first learned about it also. But you have to start with, what is the overall cash-on-cash return that that property’s going to yield, both in terms of what is going to be available from cash flow and what’s going to be available on your imagined sale. And of course, you’re making projections on how you’re going to increase the value and what appreciation is going to do, the loan’s going to be paid down. So you’re going to have to make some projections.

And always, whenever you’re making projections, please write down your assumptions, because you have to tell your investors what assumptions you made when you made your projections, and then we can say, “Hey, we made them based on our best estimates at the time, and these are the assumptions we used, but it is possible that these assumptions aren’t going to play out, that they’re not going to be correct, because we can’t predict the future, and of course, things happen outside of our control.” So, investors can look at that themselves and decide whether your assumptions were reasonable, and then they can decide whether to invest with you.

So, we take the cash-on-cash return, cash you got from cash flow plus cash you get from resale. That’s everything left after you’ve paid off all the expenses of operations and the sale and all of that and you’ve paid back the investor’s original capital contribution. So, what is that chunk of money left? And you divide that by the number of years you’ve had the property, and that will tell you what the overall annualized return on that property is. And once you know the overall annualized return, now you know how much you’re going to have to give to investors and how much you can keep for yourself in order to get your investors a return somewhere in the mid-teens. That’s what they’re looking for right now, is returns in the mid-teens. So, if you’ve got a property that’s yielding a 20% annualized cash-on-cash return, you can do a 75/25 split. This is a simplistic example of that. So, always start with your overall return, “How much do I need to give to investors to get them what they want, and what percentage is available for the management team to keep?”

Remember that your distributable cash, which is what we’re talking about here, is always determined after your fees. So, whatever fees you’re going to earn, your asset management fees, maybe you’re going to do a fee on sale, maybe you’re going to do refinance fee, whatever fees you’re owed, you can deduct those before you make those distributions to investors and consider them to be part of your operational costs. So, you deduct those first, figure out what distributable cash is available, and then you’ll figure out how much you can give them and what the split is going to be. But usually, the LP is going to get the bulk of the money, because you have to give them the bulk of the money in order to get them the returns that you want them to have, or that will entice them to invest with you. Okay?

Kaaren Hall:

Hey, Krisha, I noticed that people can’t see the messages I’m posting. Would you mind reposting them?

Krisha Young:

Yes, I will. I will. Yes. Thank you for alerting me to that.

Okay. Yeah. Thank you for letting me know. DJ, I think we answered this question, “Can you buy insurances like whole life or IUL from self-directed IRA?” But you’ve already said that that’s on the no-list, right?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, including other things. What are they called? Viaticals or something, where you’re investing in someone else’s life insurance policy, they’re not… Your IRA cannot invest in an insurance policy. It’s prohibited.

Krisha Young:

All right. Okay. So, let me just copy/paste some of these things in here. Kim, do you see any other questions in there?


“What was the name of the book again?” So, the two books that I’ve written, one is called “How to Legally Raise Private Money,” and that’s the first book. That’s an easy read, step-by-step, how to syndicate, 168 pages. The second book is 312 pages. It’s “How to Raise Capital for Real Estate Legally.” You can see it’s a bigger book. This one’s more like a desktop reference. So, you can look at the table of contents and go to a specific chapter and read about what it is you want to know, but this one if you want to read step-by-step. So, both of them are available on Amazon. Or, if you do text the word SYNDICATE, you’re going to get asked a question, and the question’s going to be, “Have you raised capital before?” and if you say no, you’re going to get the first book. If you say yes, you’re going to get the second book.

Krisha Young:

There are just a couple more questions here in the chat, actually. So, from Tyrek Barney, “As a syndicator, do you have to be security-licensed to handle self-directed IRA funds?”


No.

Krisha Young:

No. Short answer, no.


I mean it depends what you mean by handle. If we’re trying to bring them into your deal, absolutely not. If you’re going to be doing what Kaaren does and creating self-directed IRAs, then of course, you’re going to have to have whatever appropriate structure and licenses are available to do that, but I don’t think that was what was meant, right?

Krisha Young:

Yeah. Kathleen, I think we might’ve already answered this one, “Can you invest your IRA funds into an LLC that you own?”

Kaaren Hall:

The answer would no, and that’s because your IRA cannot buy an asset that you personally own. that’s prohibited. So, because then, you would have personal benefit from your IRA funds. So, personal benefit is a prohibited transaction.


But can you partner? Like say you want to buy a house, and you don’t have enough money in your IRA, you can only put up half the down payment, can you put up the other half cash and partner alongside your …

Kaaren Hall:

Don’t do that. Just don’t do that. There are self-directed IRA companies that tell you, “Go ahead,” but are they going to be there with you when the IRS is talking to you like, “Hmm, you invested 50/50 with your IRA. Did you receive any personal benefit? Yes, you did. This is a prohibited transaction.” I don’t see how that can be justified to do that. There was this obscure ruling, DOL 2000-10. Okay, I’ll say it again, DOL 2000, like the year 2000, -10, that kind of barely sort of kind of covers this. There are some self-directed IRA companies that say, “Yeah, go do it. Yeah, invest with yourself all day long,” and that just blows my mind. I would not recommend somebody do something that would put them in harm’s way, which I feel it would do, because, again, it’s a prohibited transaction to have personal benefit from your IRA. Boom, there it is.


Yeah, and I love that you take a conservative approach on this stuff, because you’re doing it for the protection of your clients, right, to make sure that they don’t do something that they think they’re doing correctly and they take one misstep and they blow the whole thing. And that’s the same reason when we bring on new clients, we make them and all the members that they want to name and their management team undergo a bad actor and a background check.

We do it for the protection of our clients, because you might’ve just met this person in an event. You don’t know if they have a criminal background or if they’ve been in trouble with securities agencies before. So if we’re the ones asking the question, it takes you out of having to have that uncomfortable conversation of, “Hey, can I do a background check on you if you want to be in our syndicate?” That’s just not a good place to be. So, you can just say, “Hey, they’re going to require it,” and then, we’ll let you know if there’s somebody that can’t be… Or, what happens is, they disqualify themselves.

Kaaren Hall:

And I got to say too, if I can add to your point, Kim, and that is to say that when you’re doing due diligence, a background check is great, but really, when the fraud happens is after you’re in the deal. It’s in the books. It’s in the day-to-day. So, saying that you want to be able to look at the audited financials, making that part of your agreement, that you have the right to audited financials is crucial. And if you’re going to look at the audited financials, call the auditor, reach out to them, say, “Hey, did you actually audit these financials?” Don’t just trust what they give you. Trust but verify, because this is where you’re going to see it. They’re going to mess with the books.


A lot of our clients, an audit will kill their deal, and so, they can use certain securities exemptions that will prevent them from having to do an audit. If you’re going to have an ongoing investment and you want to include non-accredited investors, you will incur an obligation to audit. So, you’ve got to be careful about that, the way that you structure it. And that’s one of the things you want to make sure you’re talking to your securities attorney about, is that you don’t want to have to audit your deal just so that you can include certain investors in it. And if that becomes an issue, you want to know about it so that you can at least address those issues upfront.

Kaaren Hall:

Well, whether their financials are audited or not, you definitely want to be able to have the right to look, and you want them to agree that they’re going to show you their financials … kind of open kimono, so you can see what’s happening in the books. That’s where the Ponzi scheme happens, isn’t it?


Well, yeah, and it is important. Syndicators have to have an investor communication program. And if you don’t, that person’s not going to do another deal with you, if you didn’t tell them anything that was going on in the first deal. They’re never going to do another one with you. But if you’re quarterly providing a financial statement, showing them what’s in the bank account, what’s been spent, where everything is going, and being very open and transparent about that, then they’re going to be interested in investing with you again and again and again, because they’re going to like what you do.

But I also teach that you need to pay very close attention to the people in the management team. If you are actively involved as the syndicator, you need to make sure, first of all, that there’s at least two people that have access and signing rights on the bank account, and they shouldn’t be related. They shouldn’t be related. They should be two unrelated parties. And the one that’s kind of taken the lead role on all of that and paying the bills, the other one better be looking, every week, at the bank account to make sure that there’s nothing going on, because what happens in a fraud scheme or an embezzlement scheme is that somebody will, “Oh, I’m just going to borrow $2,000, because I need to go do this. I’ve got to make my expensive car payment,” or,” I need to get this medical procedure,” or, “this cosmetic procedure.” It’s usually something that they really don’t need to do, but just borrow the money.

And then they get away with it once, and then they do it again, and then they do it again, and it continues, and it cascades. And by the time people realize, there’s thousands and thousands of dollars gone, because nobody was looking. And if somebody questioned that first transaction, said, “Hey, what is that?” then they would’ve stopped. And they tried to do it again, you’re like, “Hey, wait a minute. No, you can’t do that, and you don’t have access to the bank account anymore,” then they would stop. They wouldn’t continue to do it. It wouldn’t be an issue. And you wouldn’t have to be in that situation of trying to get that money back, which you can’t. It’s usually spent.

Krisha Young:

Yeah, we are at time here, Kim.


All right, well, thank you, Kaaren, so much, for coming. Thank you so much, Krisha, for co-hosting. Thank you everybody for spending time with us today. We hope that you all got your questions answered. If any of you did not get your questions answered, please go to uDirect IRA and schedule an appointment with them or go to syndicationattorneys.com and schedule an appointment with us, okay?

Krisha Young:

Yeah. And the podcast will be on our website within about a week or so.


Yeah, we usually edit for the YouTube channel, and then, also before we put it up on the podcast platform. But, yeah, do subscribe to our YouTube channel, please, Raise Capital Legally. It’s called Raise Capital Legally. We’re trying to get as many subscribers as we can. Thanks a lot.

Krisha Young:

Such a pleasure.

Kaaren Hall:

Thank you.


All right. Bye-bye.

Krisha Young:

Thanks.

Kaaren Hall:

Bye-bye.

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How to Think Outside the Box Investing in Co-Warehousing Space With David Fisher

Are you ready to raise private capital?

Are you ready to raise private capital?